What do you like most about your job?
I love the feedback we get from our guests, and the interactions. When I was an attorney, people didn’t come to see me because they were happy—something had gone wrong. Even if we got a good result for them, they still weren’t happy, because bucking up against the legal system is just not a pleasant experience. In this industry, everybody shows up happy, and if we do our job right, they’re even happier when they leave. Sometimes their comments seem overly dramatic, but they are sincere. People say, “This trip changed my life!” even for little trips. It’s nice to hear that even one short trip can be inspirational.
What do you like the least?
My greatest dissatisfaction is that, with every promotion in this company, the fun factor was cut right in half. I spend all my time in the office now, and I rarely get to go on trips and interact directly with our guests as much as I would like.
What advice would you give to someone interested in running an outfitter business?
I often joke with my colleagues that we’re in a lifestyle industry, but I’ve never figured out the lifestyle part of it. We’re so busy. I hear of outfitters that take two months off in the winter and live in Mexico or travel, and I can’t imagine how that would be possible. But I’m not good at taking personal time.
There are times I look at other people in our industry who have purposely stayed small, and that’s another great way to do it. They have very good lives, and they have a lot less stress than what comes with a bigger operation. But, as one of these colleagues explained to me, he answers the phone and drives the buses—he does it all. So you have to decide what you want. There are opportunities, challenges, and learning experiences with big and small operations.
What advice would you give to your younger self?
If I’d known this was where I’d end up, I would have chosen an MBA program instead of law. I think an MBA degree would have been more useful in the long run for running a business. But I kept my focus on education, and that’s been critical for me. If not for my legal degree, I probably wouldn’t be in the position I’m in. It made a big difference in the Western owners’ trust in me.
What were your first formative outdoor experiences?
I went camping with my family as a kid, and I was a Boy Scout. My troop used to go backpacking in the Sawtooth Mountains in Idaho, where I grew up. For some reason, even though I grew up in Idaho, with all the great rafting on the Salmon River, I never got introduced to it back then. If I had, it would have been all I could think about.
What’s your outlook on the future of the outdoor industry?
Some of these activities seem to have matured, including rafting. We’re not seeing growth in the whitewater industry—we’re seeing consolidation, and fewer companies offering what we do. And the number of people who go every year is kind of flat. People who seem to be having success are developing new experiences or offering a wider variety of experiences, like we did with the adventure center. Ziplining was a craze, but that seems to be backing off now. So I think it’s good to keep an open mind.
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